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23-09 Reset → 30 September 2022, Friday → 12:00 OT
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30-09 Welcome to Round #40!
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19-09 Congratulations Reichsthaler!
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01-09 Not Penny's boat..
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21-08 First Family!
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12-08 Welcome to Round #39
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03-08 Reset → 12 August 2022, Friday → 10:00 OT
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» Comments of Saros`away
07-05 Aaaaand war... again?!
Link
22:08:46 - 07-05
Anonymous at 21:43:46 on 07/05:
Anonymous at 21:42:03 on 07/05:
dunno why :S "small fams" instead killing each others should unite and fight big houses
the game it will more funny

look at last wars

Nyanja vs Valahia

Agnitio vs Apalachia

Imperial vs Blacksea

and why big allies are bloods where´s the fun in that ?

why waiting till end of version to fight each other? waiting who´s the first to stab

Omerta = Dead

big houses stop blood each other pls

just my 2 cents



:w



true. this game is dead also bcuz fams like siberia, anarchy and AETERNA

Yes, Siberia & Anarchy, you are both unique and special in your own little way. But, only Aeterna can ruin the game when we aren't even up. ;(
07-02 War!
Link
21:00:38 - 12-02
gode at 20:39:02 on 12/02:
Saros`away at 19:32:34 on 12/02:


- Avaritia was effected by those abusers.

Yes, I'm sure Bjack and his 10 totally legit roommates were left traumatized. :(

i gave an example about how reviving policy can effect gameplay. it wasnt a comment simply addressing how avaritia was effected. you know that but you love bitching, go ahead do your job

Oh, look, you're actually right for once.

Aart at 20:44:06 on 12/02:
gode at 20:37:50 on 12/02:
Johnx at 19:30:16 on 12/02:
we've had the exact same discussion when it was ava whom had effected several fams with their abuser accounts.
Sadly admins doesn't listen to what the public wants ;(

i said in same topic that revives to due akills is not a valid option
Wait does that mean I won V3.52??
Finally some appreciation.

You never won anything dickface.
Righelli even got removed from HoF, lolscrubIhavenoideahowonecouldaccomplishthat.
07-02 War!
Link
19:32:34 - 12-02
gode at 18:21:02 on 12/02:
as i said, i'm against revive policy after akill
i explained it before but will explain now with examples :

- some will say that last war Persico & Outlawz suffered from those 2 abusers. i agree
- Avaritia was effected by those abusers. Soze account (top 3 account) and Boudberg family onliners were killed by Cartegena
- Jannissary++ could not take down cartegena because of these 2 monster accounts

as a result who managed to get important revive? Prophecy. the family that was helped by cartegena against jannis++ and they were up because of this help. so you call this fair? lol

there can't be a balanced revive policy, judge those 2 accounts with last war and do not count how gameplay was unbalanced from the day those accounts went big, you will fail with this judgement.

- Avaritia was effected by those abusers. Soze account (top 3 account) and Boudberg family onliners were killed by Cartegena

- Avaritia was effected by those abusers.

Yes, I'm sure Bjack and his 10 totally legit roommates were left traumatized. :(
General Comments & Major Rumors
Link
16:48:40 - 07-02
Nuke at 04:47:25 on 07/02:
Redspeert at 17:43:44 on 06/02:

And where did I say 'spouting hate slander is perfectly fine'? I said that a little bit of flaming (like if your fam got akilled / kapwned in a war and someone made some jokes on it)...but sure we are all neonazi bigots. I'll give you one thing tho, I did nazi that coming.

You said it when you completely ignored all of the "faggot" calling, refusing to address it. You let it go on all the time, yet it only takes something as ambiguous as "potty language" to get you to remove posts. That's why this website is more embarrassing than the outdated game, itself. You people represent Europe as a bunch of uneducated bigots.

I'm actually curious in what kind of fashion you think you represent 'murica in here. Please elaborate. :(
18-01 When will the madness end?
Link
03:54:32 - 23-01
Nuke at 02:09:44 on 23/01:
It's not as much difference as I thought it would be. What changed between 3.2 and 3.3, then 3.4? That looks drastic.

Lackeys.
10-01 Keep your friends close.. or..?
Link
12:30:52 - 12-01
Solstice at 12:21:13 on 12/01:
Aart at 11:59:20 on 12/01:
Saros`away at 11:44:25 on 12/01:
Aart at 11:13:48 on 12/01:
MurderInc at 01:10:59 on 12/01:
To say the least, I was literally dumbstruck when I first saw the leak. To see someone who I've been topping with for essentially 1.5 years, who has ranked for Siberia and even been in our top channel as a fly on the wall last version essentially dump a private conversation in someone's pm like that ... well, I haven't seen anything like it before. I didn't even consider it a remote possibility. I know it sounds weird to see me complain after the logs you saw, but I hope you can see the difference between stabbing a blood and ruining someone's "omerta career" - someone you've been working with for years.
There's also a level of selective perception going on that I can't even put my words to. Faffie is absolutely no stranger to the way we played this version, and selling out bloods like this is what we essentially did to Righelli in 4.1 and Aeterna in 4.6. In both versions that we won, we either had a large amount of bloods ourselves or benefited from bloods with a rather big circle. In versions where we chose to keep a rather small list of bloods, we stood our ground during the obligatory gangbang for a couple of days and then died. This is the same pattern that we've been seeing for ... well, ever since I started playing again.
I can imagine you being dumbstruck by the leak, my face was like :OOO ... i imagine yours like :OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.
I have been on the opposite side of the gun from you ingame since ever and i sincerely don't think you or any other sib top have to publicly excuse or clarify your actions for anything. If anyone's omerta career was ruined this week its your old pal Fenrir and not you guys. This game is played shady and ppl should deal with it.
Ingame i consider you (and crit) as dicks ;( cause reasons, but i'll sure miss to see you guys around in case you decide it ends here.

Does this mean you're not mad at me anymore either Aartknk? :(
I wasn't mad saartje, just disappointed.
right in the feels

Sounds like my mom guilttripping me ;( .

He does somewhat have a point, slightly, but he knows how bad I feel about it aswell :(
10-01 Keep your friends close.. or..?
Link
11:44:25 - 12-01
Aart at 11:13:48 on 12/01:
MurderInc at 01:10:59 on 12/01:
To say the least, I was literally dumbstruck when I first saw the leak. To see someone who I've been topping with for essentially 1.5 years, who has ranked for Siberia and even been in our top channel as a fly on the wall last version essentially dump a private conversation in someone's pm like that ... well, I haven't seen anything like it before. I didn't even consider it a remote possibility. I know it sounds weird to see me complain after the logs you saw, but I hope you can see the difference between stabbing a blood and ruining someone's "omerta career" - someone you've been working with for years.
There's also a level of selective perception going on that I can't even put my words to. Faffie is absolutely no stranger to the way we played this version, and selling out bloods like this is what we essentially did to Righelli in 4.1 and Aeterna in 4.6. In both versions that we won, we either had a large amount of bloods ourselves or benefited from bloods with a rather big circle. In versions where we chose to keep a rather small list of bloods, we stood our ground during the obligatory gangbang for a couple of days and then died. This is the same pattern that we've been seeing for ... well, ever since I started playing again.
I can imagine you being dumbstruck by the leak, my face was like :OOO ... i imagine yours like :OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.
I have been on the opposite side of the gun from you ingame since ever and i sincerely don't think you or any other sib top have to publicly excuse or clarify your actions for anything. If anyone's omerta career was ruined this week its your old pal Fenrir and not you guys. This game is played shady and ppl should deal with it.
Ingame i consider you (and crit) as dicks ;( cause reasons, but i'll sure miss to see you guys around in case you decide it ends here.

Does this mean you're not mad at me anymore either Aartknk? :(
General Comments & Major Rumors
Link
16:19:00 - 17-12
Solstice at 10:46:07 on 17/12:
Anonymous at 07:27:36 on 17/12:
Anonymous at 23:49:50 on 16/12:
Anonymous at 20:02:40 on 16/12:
Anonymous at 19:13:21 on 16/12:
Anonymous at 17:52:21 on 16/12:
Anonymous at 17:50:26 on 16/12:
Anonymous at 17:35:24 on 16/12:
i can't believe hall of fame matters so much that its still a topic lol. it didn't used to even exist, if you 'won' you won, be happy, who cares about a voucher? if its the only reason you play then omerta is clearly wrong game for you. admins will kill as and when they want to and can and have removed hall of fame rewards before.
if your fam did good this version be proud of what you achieved, if not then work hard to do better next time and take revenge if you didn't come out on top or got screwed.
get over it already.

well we won,and when i look hall of fame,i can see 15 winers of wersion,and i only cant see winers of wersion when i win...
its not fair,if admin want remove hall of fame this wersion,they need delete hall of fame totality.anyway aeterna never win...


Actually we did win a couple versions, we just don't care about a HoF spot as much as you lads do.
Well as admin found your bug with health and money,they decide delete you in HoF...

Health and money hmm... Aeterna never had a health bug that was righelli and lucchese. I can also assure you we didn't have the money bug during all versions. Admins took all HoF because of punishment. Not that we care, as if anyone cares about HoF

With people like Piadent Xaros Saros in your fam and claiming you didnt had a money or healthbug xD made my day already.. Just remove the Hall of Fame , end of discussion

This Xaros character sounds very very shady.

A fusion dance between Xerano and myself would result in Xeros, harbinger of destruction and doom. I doubt the world is ready for such a creation, the thought alone already frightens me atleast.
General Comments & Major Rumors
Link
18:29:49 - 15-12
Anonymous at 18:18:52 on 15/12:
Saros`away at 18:12:12 on 15/12:
Anonymous at 17:11:24 on 15/12:
but i dont blame lusa,this is only Bramble mistake...First of all,that admin come on irc every 2 days on 1 h,and she pm saros and some beynod reporter for info,and left game...Only problem this werison was,because we are have back old fams like catania-dig etc... and they are send alot of report omerta company,so Bramble cant do anything for lusa and akill :D but she can found fair way in the end :D punish all ! Kim Dzong Un bramble !!!

Yes, sounds legit, Bramble has always been my bestie ofcourse. Suck dick MurderStink, you got replaced.

saros how much support mail you are send Bramble in last 3 days?

Mail...? Ha, silly peasant. I visit her during office hours, that's what besties do.
General Comments & Major Rumors
Link
18:12:12 - 15-12
Anonymous at 17:11:24 on 15/12:
but i dont blame lusa,this is only Bramble mistake...First of all,that admin come on irc every 2 days on 1 h,and she pm saros and some beynod reporter for info,and left game...Only problem this werison was,because we are have back old fams like catania-dig etc... and they are send alot of report omerta company,so Bramble cant do anything for lusa and akill :D but she can found fair way in the end :D punish all ! Kim Dzong Un bramble !!!

Yes, sounds legit, Bramble has always been my bestie ofcourse. Suck dick MurderStink, you got replaced.
05-12 The Punishment
Link
18:14:17 - 05-12
Nuke at 17:53:44 on 05/12:
Saros`away at 17:31:40 on 05/12:

[20:54] <Arcanine> i see a few CD's still CD although they dont have anywhere near 2,000 capo strength..just matter of time till demote?
[20:54] <Dee> are they off?
[20:54] <!KCode> Arcanine, display rank
[20:54] <!KCode> the real rank is always on system
[20:54] * Jans ([email protected]) has joined #4.0
[20:54] <!KCode> display rank is only updated on action


*cough* Such a strong bug. *cough*

As you've seen, Omerta has plenty of bugs in it, so that means even the programmers who write the code still have numerous problems to sort out. Someone from staff saying that it's 100% working does not go along with the fact that there are admin kills accusing of bug exploitation.

Here's a hint: A fact usually has a source to back the claim.

You will not find the current KA posted anywhere for the public's eye. Even if you do find the KA by itself, you have to look at the rest of the coding and reference variables to assure that it is working as intended. The KA relies on variables such as rank, account points, villa, bodyguards.. etc. I keep reading how everything is fine, by I keep witnessing something else.

If there was a known bug due to programming errors, would the person who wrote it tell me that it was working incorrectly or try to pass me off by telling me everything is really fine?.. The display is the only error.. Really? How difficult would have have been to fix over a year ago?

And...?

That you'd rather believe your own experiences doesn't change what has been told to us by the admins, regardless if it's actually working like intented or not. It seems to me that you desperately want to believe that Lusa are some mastermind cheaters that got finally got caught, instead of listening to anything that doesn't work well with you arguments. That's fine with me, it's only a tad bit typical.

But if there's one thing that we all should agree on here no matter if you regard Lusa as the ultimate cheaterhaxduperscum or not. It's that admins once again take the worst option they had available in giving an entire family akills/punishes and at the same time not reviving anyone who supposedly got disadvantaged by this (cosmetic) bug.

It's been fixed now anyway, so I guess it's not a matter of being 'hard' to fix and more of being 'hard' to finally start working on it.
05-12 The Punishment
Link
17:31:40 - 05-12

[20:54] <Arcanine> i see a few CD's still CD although they dont have anywhere near 2,000 capo strength..just matter of time till demote?
[20:54] <Dee> are they off?
[20:54] <!KCode> Arcanine, display rank
[20:54] <!KCode> the real rank is always on system
[20:54] * Jans ([email protected]) has joined #4.0
[20:54] <!KCode> display rank is only updated on action


*cough* Such a strong bug. *cough*
30-11 Bass Bass Boom!
Link
13:31:08 - 02-12
Knele at 13:19:52 on 02/12:
Saros`away at 13:13:35 on 02/12:
Jordyrp at 12:41:28 on 02/12:
Nuke at 12:34:44 on 02/12:
Anonymous at 12:10:55 on 02/12:
lol ahaha you wanna know the truth ? the thing is , many of you have played this game for years , and you could achieve that kind of acc, but im talking about you being miles away from him, he has the best acc, and you really thing he could stay without being akilled if he was duping? ahah you really thing crew would allow that? grigory was banned , why wouldnt he be? ahaha you are all losers, and hipocrits you cant do that kind of acc so you say he cheats , ahah pitfiful in my opinion , and wanna know the funny part ? i heard that , his acc was his better 'til this day , and some of they tops had never had an acc so good for all the time they have played this game too , lets all say they cheat just because we cant reach that level..

Yes. Yes there are hundreds of us that believe he could remain alive while blatantly cheating. We've seen in with Lucchese back in 2.0/ 2.1 and we saw it with Righelli this year. That's why people constantly make fun of the game's owner and call him names.

What did Righelli do :(

Haxed the game to death, what else? Fucking Bughelli.


@ Nuke

Amusing conspiracy theories, but I didn't defend anyone. I merely pointed out that the people who accuse Lusa of cheating are making a bunch of assumptions and speculations based on, well, nothing much really.

But that isn't my concern, all I care about is how the war itself is executed and it was done so poorly. Now if we all could just accept that reality, that would be fabulous.

Well how come this war is soo "poor" and "bad" from attacker side,but your family still hugging villa since begin. I don't get it tbh.

What don't you get about losing nearly 20 brugs? I reckon myself a better hugger than that if we were hiding in villa since the beginning. Come on, atleast try to make a little bit of sense my friend.
30-11 Bass Bass Boom!
Link
13:13:35 - 02-12
Jordyrp at 12:41:28 on 02/12:
Nuke at 12:34:44 on 02/12:
Anonymous at 12:10:55 on 02/12:
lol ahaha you wanna know the truth ? the thing is , many of you have played this game for years , and you could achieve that kind of acc, but im talking about you being miles away from him, he has the best acc, and you really thing he could stay without being akilled if he was duping? ahah you really thing crew would allow that? grigory was banned , why wouldnt he be? ahaha you are all losers, and hipocrits you cant do that kind of acc so you say he cheats , ahah pitfiful in my opinion , and wanna know the funny part ? i heard that , his acc was his better 'til this day , and some of they tops had never had an acc so good for all the time they have played this game too , lets all say they cheat just because we cant reach that level..

Yes. Yes there are hundreds of us that believe he could remain alive while blatantly cheating. We've seen in with Lucchese back in 2.0/ 2.1 and we saw it with Righelli this year. That's why people constantly make fun of the game's owner and call him names.

What did Righelli do :(

Haxed the game to death, what else? Fucking Bughelli.


@ Nuke

Amusing conspiracy theories, but I didn't defend anyone. I merely pointed out that the people who accuse Lusa of cheating are making a bunch of assumptions and speculations based on, well, nothing much really.

But that isn't my concern, all I care about is how the war itself is executed and it was done so poorly. Now if we all could just accept that reality, that would be fabulous.
30-11 Bass Bass Boom!
Link
10:35:03 - 02-12
Ivopausje at 07:25:26 on 02/12:
@ Saros and Grigori. You guys have absolutely no right to talk about respect/embarassment. The only shamefull bunch is you lot. Since I dont like bashing without arguments, allow me to explain myself.

- It is a well know fact that the Lusa family has an impressive Dupe ammount. You may claim otherwise and tell you have a large playerbase, though we all that is not true. In fact, you guys are far worse then the Union Chapter/Villa spot abusers/dupes of the ANPT family a few years ago.

- Because of these dupes, you managad to get ascii and some other top players incredibly strong in just a few weeks. No matter how you put it, you simply cannot reach 2.5 mill bullets in such a short time without using dupes and bending the rules of the game.

- Because of these actions, ascii and the other top players managed to survive the first war offcourse, which gained them a fair ammount of account strength due to the kills that were made. The attacking families however, consist mostly of rebirth accounts without this strenght and kills. Therefore, it is only logical that a 150% brug can never kill a Lusa CD or GF thats has been fed tons of money and stuff from the massive dupe base and has around 300% rp. Remember Smul in 3.0? He had over 1500% Rp and survived all wars, which meant he could kill any rebirth GF/CD with 1 shot. Only difference is that he played fair and never got close to shooting 2,5 mill bullets in 8 months.

I think you see my point here. There is no honour in boasting how good you are if you take in consideration that your strong GF and CD did not achieve this strength in a fair way. So please fuck off with your ebola comments.

Ivopausje out o/

Incredibely long, whiny comment about something that doesn't really have anything to do with me, cute.

I'll ignore the fact that you're basically saying ''I know I don't have any proof for my claims whatsoever, but I still just assume a bunch of things and portray them as fact and write them down'' to entertain your notion.

That Lusa accounts are way stronger than the attacking party is a fact that nobody denies, however, the point here is that perhaps with a bit of proper planning and the right amount of pressure on 3 families you could have forced the defending party offline entirely. Unable to login and shoot back at your side would have prevented casualties as heavy as these. It's simple logic that your entire attack failed and somehow none of you (Except HHMD) have the guts to admit it.

Then again, if you somehow sit and stare around doing nothing when Lusa is tearing down fams the entire weekend, maybe you shouldn't be so surprised that they have overpowered accounts compared to yours at the moment.
30-11 Bass Bass Boom!
Link
22:10:17 - 01-12
Redspeert at 21:09:57 on 01/12:
Saros`away at 17:36:48 on 01/12:
mmm at 17:28:56 on 01/12:
Saros`away at 16:31:57 on 01/12:
Or perhaps he's pointing out that your side still had those 22 CD+ (8 GFs) when you attacked Lusa. And perhaps you fail to see that the point is that you didn't even manage to kill 1(lol) CD of them while your side attacked first with overwhelming odds.

Just a random thought.

Saros come on.. You know the CD's from Lusa had way more acc points than the ones from other fams who were mostly or.. rerank accounts or.. the slackers that were left from the first war. So do the math.. slackers/rerankers vs #1 Family WITH plenty of bullets shot AND the favorite accounts to make CD in teh first place. If those CD's would shoot the Lusa cd's, they'd die just as easy in bf as any brug. You saw how easy Ascii killed all dem GF's as well, same story applies there. Amount doesn't really count, acc points do.

Just simple logic.

Oh I know, sadly it doesn't make the situation any less embarrassing.

Want to know whats embarrassing?

Controlling the largest group in the game, and still get shot down by 'noobs' 3 versions in a row. Oh the mighty.

You win some you lose some my friend. Or well, except you aren't really familiar with the first category ofcourse.

Don't remember where I called anyone 'noobs' though, you have this hilarious tendency to take things out of context while calling people around you 'retards'. Yet I can't remember the last time you or your fams actually managed to do anything major in the game, besides the endless tears in here that is.
30-11 Bass Bass Boom!
Link
18:31:15 - 01-12
Anonymous at 18:21:15 on 01/12:
mmm at 17:53:16 on 01/12:
Knele at 17:48:56 on 01/12:
facepalm.

For once in my life.. I agree with Knele.

anyone laying a bet on the fact we just saw a pact member speak?

Probably Saros in disguise, but yea none of his lapdog family's decinas have died since they got more hax than the rest of omerta. Especially the smaller families don't bother to have a don that engages in large scale duping, let alone 10 of such accounts.

''Boohoo we can't kill them so they cheat :(''

You all never cease to amuse me.
30-11 Bass Bass Boom!
Link
17:36:48 - 01-12
mmm at 17:28:56 on 01/12:
Saros`away at 16:31:57 on 01/12:
Or perhaps he's pointing out that your side still had those 22 CD+ (8 GFs) when you attacked Lusa. And perhaps you fail to see that the point is that you didn't even manage to kill 1(lol) CD of them while your side attacked first with overwhelming odds.

Just a random thought.

Saros come on.. You know the CD's from Lusa had way more acc points than the ones from other fams who were mostly or.. rerank accounts or.. the slackers that were left from the first war. So do the math.. slackers/rerankers vs #1 Family WITH plenty of bullets shot AND the favorite accounts to make CD in teh first place. If those CD's would shoot the Lusa cd's, they'd die just as easy in bf as any brug. You saw how easy Ascii killed all dem GF's as well, same story applies there. Amount doesn't really count, acc points do.

Just simple logic.

Oh I know, sadly it doesn't make the situation any less embarrassing.
30-11 Bass Bass Boom!
Link
16:31:57 - 01-12
Redspeert at 15:47:11 on 01/12:
vasiliy at 15:27:40 on 01/12:
Anonymous at 11:15:46 on 01/12:
Anonymous at 10:08:14 on 01/12:
some stats at 09:12:44 on 01/12:
here are some stats :

prov : 30 brugs
ashil :26 brugs
inter : 16 brugs
falcone : 9 brugs
velentza : 13 brugs
samagono : 12 brugs
atom : 15 brugs
krays : 10 brugs
catania : 8 brugs

total brugs amount : 139

lusa has 26, tiju has 22 , prop has 10 brugs left.

conclusion : shoot 12-14 brugs from lusa , 10-12 from tiju and 3-4 from prop. and their cds will depromote.

if u guys can shoot 25-30 brugs with your 139 brugs. then you will win this version.

good luck...
Yes maybe it happen,
But lusa have very strong acc, they can kill brugs with one shoot. Its very difficult to kill them i think

when they are cds, you are right. but when they depromote to brugs, a suicider chief can easily break the ice and second shooter can achieve it.


omfg is this the way you wanna win? haha lmao
http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=10d9lvm&s=8#.VHyIQDHF98F
xoxo nuubs


As you seem to be rather retarded, I'll try to use simple words so a simple soul as you can understand it...

There's this thing called account strenght, which makes it hard to kill a cdc as brug. If you demote the cdc, its far easier to kill him. Now go back to your school and request your money back, they clearly failed.

Or perhaps he's pointing out that your side still had those 22 CD+ (8 GFs) when you attacked Lusa. And perhaps you fail to see that the point is that you didn't even manage to kill 1(lol) CD of them while your side attacked first with overwhelming odds.

Just a random thought.
28-11 The way of the Ninja
Link
10:41:03 - 29-11
Anonymous at 10:28:05 on 29/11:
Saros`away at 09:46:09 on 29/11:
Anonymous at 09:35:37 on 29/11:
I think it's pretty obvious Lusa and Burguesia made some kind of deal, a non-shoot or whatsoever. This was the perfect chance for Burg+ to counter on Lusa together with a bunch of other fams, it will bite them in the rear later this version.

It's also plain clear Tijuana is still in the same friggin pact, even tho they stated not working together with Lusa, what a laugh. Sounds like Aeterna from the previous version all over again, the sneaky shit with Siberia.

Is this the new way of playing omerta? Sneaky pacts, more sneaky shit and staying offline when you get shot?

Hail the pact.

QQ

-> Shoots Kurosawa who is bloods with Burg/Lusa/Proph/Tiju.
-> Cries like a little girl about pacts when those fams have a common interest in defending their blood together.

Perhaps if you didn't want this kind of result you guys should have planned your war better than whatever this display was supposed to be.

So sad, such salty tears, lovely.


Well he is true again Kuro have 5 bloods now and 2 more died Siberia and Aeterna , That is too normal Saros agree them cuz you guys have same style. They learn you Sarow massblooding, but you should teach them for organize their dupes , pls do it next time

Maybe if Trza and Soprano buy me dinner first, I don't work for free :(